Ep. 024 - Cyber Resilience in Food and Agriculture: Andrew Rose & Dr. Darin Detwiler (Part 1)
In this episode, Kristin Demoranville sits down with AgFuturist Andrew Rose and food safety advocate Dr. Darin Detwiler to discuss why cybersecurity is a growing concern for the food and agriculture industries.
Andrew Rose, an advisor to BIO-ISAC and a leader in agricultural innovation, shares his insights into protecting farmers and food supply chains from cyber threats. Dr. Detwiler, a renowned food safety expert, educator, and author, explains why inaction is the greatest cost to our global food systems. Tune in for an eye-opening conversation on resilience, risks, and real solutions for protecting what feeds us all.
🔊 This is Part 1 of a two-part series.
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Episode Key Highlights:
(0:00:21) - Introducing Andrew Rose and Dr. Darin Detwiler
(0:00:49) - Andrew Rose: Supporting Agriculture Through Cybersecurity
(0:01:10) - Darin Detwiler: Food Safety Awareness and Advocacy
(0:07:14) - Reflections on the Montreal Conference Panel
(0:08:56) - Challenges in Communicating Cybersecurity to Executives
(0:11:27) - Differences Between Traditional and Cybersecurity Audiences
(0:14:14) - Food and Agriculture as Universal Critical Infrastructure
(0:16:42) - Complexity and Fragility of the Food System
(0:18:19) - Cybersecurity Adoption Barriers for Small Farmers
(0:21:23) - Tech Stacks: Agility vs. Fragility in Food Systems
(0:24:08) - Financial Risks and Proactive Cybersecurity Investments
(0:27:33) - Cost of Doing Nothing: Ignoring Risks in Food Security
(0:30:02) - Corporate Responsibility and Accountability in Cyber Incidents
(0:32:11) - Predictions of a High-Profile Food Cybersecurity Attack
(0:35:09) - Cybersecurity Awareness and Future Resilience Initiatives
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Show Notes:
Nashville Recommendations from Andrew Rose:
(Hotdogs) I Dream Of Weenie: https://www.facebook.com/IDreamofWeenie
(Ribs) Uncle Bud’s Catfish Chicken & Such: https://www.unclebuds.com/
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Our panel was at the InCyber Conference in Montreal:
https://northamerica.forum-incyber.com/en/home-en/
InCyber Forum USA (new) San Antonio, TX, June 17-18, 2025:
https://usa.forum-incyber.com/
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Cyberbiosecurity Summit
February 25-26, Laurel, Maryland:
https://www.cyberbiosecuritysummit.org/
Sumitt to a proposal to speak here:
https://www.cyberbiosecuritysummit.org/sessions
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BSides ICS/OT Conference 🎉🌟
Feb. 10, 2025, in Tampa, Florida 🌴 (the day before S4x25 Conference)
Call for Papers is OPEN till 12/31/24!
Registration is OPEN: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/bsides-icsot-tickets-1078099778459
General Admission is $30, and Student/Veteran is $20!
Questions or Need more information email: info@bsidesics.org
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Listen to full episode :
Episode Guide:
(0:00:21) - Introducing Andrew Rose and Dr. Darin Detwiler
(0:00:49) - Andrew Rose: Supporting Agriculture Through Cybersecurity
(0:01:10) - Darin Detwiler: Food Safety Awareness and Advocacy
(0:07:14) - Reflections on the Montreal Conference Panel
(0:08:56) - Challenges in Communicating Cybersecurity to Executives
(0:11:27) - Differences Between Traditional and Cybersecurity Audiences
(0:14:14) - Food and Agriculture as Universal Critical Infrastructure
(0:16:42) - Complexity and Fragility of the Food System
(0:18:19) - Cybersecurity Adoption Barriers for Small Farmers
(0:21:23) - Tech Stacks: Agility vs. Fragility in Food Systems
(0:24:08) - Financial Risks and Proactive Cybersecurity Investments
(0:27:33) - Cost of Doing Nothing: Ignoring Risks in Food Security
(0:30:02) - Corporate Responsibility and Accountability in Cyber Incidents
(0:32:11) - Predictions of a High-Profile Food Cybersecurity Attack
(0:35:09) - Cybersecurity Awareness and Future Resilience Initiatives
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00:00:00 Kristin Demoranville
Well, welcome back.
00:00:01 Kristin Demoranville
We have some returning guests, but we're also going to talk about a panel that we all recently did together in Montreal and this is going to be kind of a continuation of that and a little bit for those who missed it. If you weren't at the in Cy.
00:00:13 Kristin Demoranville
In Montreal, Darren and Andrew thank you for being.
00:00:16 Kristin Demoranville
We're going to start with quick introductions because I'm sure everybody needs to remember.
00:00:20 Kristin Demoranville
You are.
00:00:21 Kristin Demoranville
So tell me. Tell me how you help people and why that matters to society. Andrew, you can start.
00:00:26 Andrew Rose
Sure. I am Andrew.
00:00:28 Andrew Rose
I am an advisor with the bio Isac.
00:00:31 Andrew Rose
Represent the bio agriculture work group there.
00:00:35 Andrew Rose
How we help people is basically to try to ensure they have food that they eat in a reliable, consistent manner.
00:00:42 Andrew Rose
Who we help are the agricultural community and bringing awareness, mitigation response.
00:00:48 Andrew Rose
Cyber and related threats.
00:00:49 Andrew Rose
It may encounter my role in that is understanding what those threats may be and putting tabletop and field exercises on.
00:00:56 Andrew Rose
I have a particular fascination with agriculture for many, many, many.
00:01:00 Darin Detwiler
Darren, I am a food safety professor and author and advocate and I help in the areas of awareness.
00:01:10 Darin Detwiler
Allies, advocacy, and even activism, and specifically, I help people who work in food safety for major corporations where they.
00:01:19 Darin Detwiler
Well, we never talk about food safety and I can't get in and the conversation around food safety. And I say, well, you know, when they're talking about reducing waste and improving upon inefficiencies and maximize.
00:01:29 Darin Detwiler
Profits and and and you know that kind of stuff. That's where you can talk about food safety when you, when you look at it that way and you know when you look at the idea of brand reputation and and and a corporate mission statement.
00:01:42 Darin Detwiler
Does food safety relate to?
00:01:44 Darin Detwiler
How do all these different things relate to that so?
00:01:47 Darin Detwiler
I basically help people.
00:01:48 Darin Detwiler
I listen.
00:01:48 Darin Detwiler
And then I help them reframe the conversation.
00:01:51 Kristin Demoranville
Yes, thank you both. And in tradition, since we already know what your favorite food a favorite food memories are based on previous episodes, what is your current food?
00:02:00 Kristin Demoranville
Favorite food or favorite food fixation and your presence or recent food memory?
00:02:05 Darin Detwiler
Andrew, why don't go ahead first.
00:02:07 Andrew Rose
Sure, I'll. I'll happy to take that one as well. And that would have to be pancakes every year for my.
00:02:12 Andrew Rose
We get to choose, well, all of us get to choose which restaurant we go to, and mine is always IHOP because you are always going to get a good pancake at IHOP. And when I was up in Montreal on the way back, I stopped at a.
00:02:23 Andrew Rose
Little town called Grafton, Vermont, and I got a little thing of Maple syrup, so I'm going to sneak that into IHOP next time I go in there and have those pancakes with IHOP syrup on it.
00:02:33 Andrew Rose
That's not a recent.
00:02:34 Andrew Rose
That's just more my obsession at this point. Time my recent memory, it goes back to Montreal as well. Before I got up there, a friend of mine had done some consulting work for a company.
00:02:44 Andrew Rose
Old Montreal bagels in the United States? I asked her.
00:02:47 Andrew Rose
Said, well, what is a Montreal bagel?
00:02:49 Andrew Rose
I come from or I went to high school in north.
00:02:51 Andrew Rose
We have a certain standard for bagels that we appreciate, and we look scornfully upon anyone else in the other state that tries to sell something called a bagel. So this Montreal.
00:02:59 Andrew Rose
Intrigue me and when I got up to Montreal, I find out it's not really a bagel at.
00:03:04 Andrew Rose
It's kind of like a bagel where you chop the top and bottom off your left for that little skinny middle part there and it was difficult for me to find a Montreal bagel that would hold an appropriate amount of anything.
00:03:15 Andrew Rose
Cream cheese.
00:03:16 Andrew Rose
Lettuce, tomato, anything on there is more like thin toast than a bagel, and I think that they almost shouldn't call that a bagel at all. But and really no offense to the folk good folks up in Montreal and and our friends up in Canada, but.
00:03:29 Andrew Rose
I don't think you should really hold that out as a brand of choice for you guys, so.
00:03:33 Andrew Rose
That's my recent food experience.
00:03:36 Kristin Demoranville
That's great. And obviously you can't see me, but I've been laughing the entire time. Andrews been talking quietly, of course.
00:03:42 Kristin Demoranville
Yes, I also feel similar to the Montreal bagel, which is very odd to me as.
00:03:47 Kristin Demoranville
Sort of reminds me of those thin bagels you can buy in the grocery store that are processed.
00:03:51 Kristin Demoranville
Always see them and go. Why?
00:03:53 Kristin Demoranville
Don't.
00:03:53 Kristin Demoranville
Anyways, thanks Andrew.
00:03:55 Kristin Demoranville
Darren.
00:03:56 Darin Detwiler
Well, First off.
00:03:57 Darin Detwiler
On Election Day, my wife brought me some Boston baked beans.
00:04:02 Darin Detwiler
She knows that when I was a kid, I always thought they were like the best medicine.
00:04:03 Kristin Demoranville
Nice.
00:04:06 Darin Detwiler
In the world.
00:04:07 Darin Detwiler
And so there's that.
00:04:09 Darin Detwiler
But a funny kind of story is that I was recently in Nashville and I thought, oh, if I'm going to be in Nashville, I want to get some. I want to get some ribs. And so the hotel were like, hey, where's a good place to get ribs like?
00:04:21 Darin Detwiler
Go to this place to go to this place. We sit down and then we like okay. Wait, there's no ribs on the menu and the ser.
00:04:27 Darin Detwiler
Was like, yeah, we don't sell.
00:04:29 Darin Detwiler
We've never sold ribs. OK, so where should we?
00:04:32 Darin Detwiler
So we went to this other restaurant and they did sell ribs. So we order like a rack of ribs and you order a drink and an appetizer and all of a sudden the server comes back and goes. I'm so sorry.
00:04:42 Darin Detwiler
We have now sold out of all there is. So like, are you serious?
00:04:46 Darin Detwiler
So we ended brisket, and then the next day we went to another restaurant.
00:04:51 Darin Detwiler
And this again, definitely had ribs.
00:04:53 Darin Detwiler
Recommended.
00:04:54 Darin Detwiler
We took a a lift clear across town.
00:04:57 Darin Detwiler
We get there and there's like 2 freaking buses of basketball players getting off and.
00:05:03 Darin Detwiler
Like quick get in quick beat the basketball team.
00:05:06 Darin Detwiler
Do not want to.
00:05:07 Darin Detwiler
Have the two basketball teams eat all the ribs kind of thing because it's like, you know, we're not going to miss this opportunity to have ribs.
00:05:14 Darin Detwiler
In in Nashville, we did have ribs.
00:05:16 Darin Detwiler
Was.
00:05:16 Darin Detwiler
And then everyone said, oh, you need to go to this place.
00:05:19 Darin Detwiler
So last night we went to this Tex Mex place and ordered an enchilada and a Taco and the.
00:05:26 Darin Detwiler
Taco, meet my wife before I was gonna bite into the Taco, she goes.
00:05:30 Darin Detwiler
Hey, you might want.
00:05:30 Darin Detwiler
You might not want.
00:05:31 Darin Detwiler
Bite into that because the Taco meat was so undercooked.
00:05:34 Darin Detwiler
Was red.
00:05:36 Darin Detwiler
And Oh yeah, yeah. And I had this conversation with the.
00:05:40 Andrew Rose
Well, let me ask you that was was.
00:05:42 Andrew Rose
Was it just undercooked, or was it just a piece of O fall? That's always gonna be read?
00:05:46 Darin Detwiler
No.
00:05:46 Andrew Rose
It was.
00:05:47 Darin Detwiler
It was very, very, very, very undercooked and.
00:05:51 Darin Detwiler
And the the person in charge tried to give me excuses and anyway then offered me a coupon to come back.
00:05:56 Darin Detwiler
Like, no, I'm not coming back so.
00:05:59 Darin Detwiler
Nashville did me wrong.
00:06:01 Andrew Rose
Well, you did Nashville.
00:06:02 Andrew Rose
I mean, if you were Nashville hot chicken, I mean, you gotta go to Hattie B.
00:06:06 Kristin Demoranville
Take a chicken too.
00:06:06 Andrew Rose
Stand in line or go to churches and get that scorching chicken and the only thing that really I think stands out was the banana pudding I got afterwards there.
00:06:15 Darin Detwiler
I did.
00:06:15 Darin Detwiler
Some banana pudding when we were there and even not just banana pudding, but banana pudding with a shot of bourbon on top.
00:06:21 Andrew Rose
They do banana pudding well down there and two other restaurants have note in Nashville for any loyal listeners that do go there.
00:06:27 Andrew Rose
In East Nashville is called I dream of.
00:06:30 Andrew Rose
It's the best hot dogs and you want to get the rebel Yelp with the jalapenos in there. That's good.
00:06:35 Andrew Rose
And then Darren, to your seeking ribs, uncle buds. Catfish and stuff. Such. That's the all you can eat place over there in goodness east.
00:06:46 Andrew Rose
I think it is so when I.
00:06:47 Darin Detwiler
I think it changed the nature.
00:06:49 Darin Detwiler
Podcast to a different form of fight.
00:06:51 Andrew Rose
Well.
00:06:53 Kristin Demoranville
The fact that you guys are completely talking about bananas freely and I'm massively allergic to them and they make me nauseous just for my smell. It's like super grossing me out right now, so.
00:07:02 Kristin Demoranville
I've lost my appetite.
00:07:04 Andrew Rose
Well, they have vanilla wafers in there too, so Oh no.
00:07:07 Kristin Demoranville
See, now you're just making it worse.
00:07:10 Kristin Demoranville
Now it's chunky like I can't.
00:07:14 Kristin Demoranville
Oh my.
00:07:14 Kristin Demoranville
All right. Well, swinging away from this really fast, I thought I would love to hear your thoughts on how you thought the panel went at the Montreal conference.
00:07:22 Kristin Demoranville
Then we'll kind of get into some, like, follow up questions.
00:07:25 Kristin Demoranville
To kind of make it a little more spicy that we could have on stage since we had a very limited amount of time.
00:07:30 Kristin Demoranville
Will you go 1st and kind of give me?
00:07:32 Kristin Demoranville
Overall thoughts?
00:07:33 Darin Detwiler
You know.
00:07:34 Darin Detwiler
Walking into the facility, there were so many people that were selling products and services and then you see this, this, this, this area where we had the stage and the audience and you know, there were some great questions from the audience.
00:07:47 Darin Detwiler
Think that there was a general.
00:07:49 Darin Detwiler
You know, a desire of attendees to really kind of focus in some issues and some people coming into this, you know, it wasn't like, hey, I'm a blank slate and I want to learn about this before it was more like I've been dealing with this. Thank God there.
00:08:02 Darin Detwiler
One who's who's talking about this? You know, because everyone I talk to is like hitting a brick.
00:08:06 Darin Detwiler
And now I'm going to talk to these folks about these issues and how does this apply to this and what's an example of that?
00:08:12 Darin Detwiler
I think it kind of goes back to.
00:08:14 Darin Detwiler
To.
00:08:15 Darin Detwiler
I said in terms of the conversation I had earlier this morning when people have a hard time talking with the people above them about like, let's say, food safety many times there's a disconnect between the people who make the purchase decisions and the executive decisions when it go.
00:08:28 Darin Detwiler
Go down a road, especially when you're looking at the idea of cybersecurity. Right and.
00:08:32 Darin Detwiler
People who are literally dealing with the using of the tools and resources and dealing with the day in and day out issues around resiliency. And I think that there's.
00:08:41 Darin Detwiler
A bit of an opportunity when we had this conversation there to be like.
00:08:44 Darin Detwiler
You know what are the messages that we can help impart to these people who then are going to take what they learn from our panel to the next level wherever they work in terms of, OK, we need to consider this.
00:08:54 Darin Detwiler
Need to talk about it in terms of these terms.
00:08:56 Darin Detwiler
That was my biggest take away was it was.
00:08:58 Darin Detwiler
It was an audience that was receptive to how can we strengthen not just, you know, cyber security resilience, but our conversation with cybersecurity resilience to the people above.
00:09:08 Darin Detwiler
Of us. And it wasn't like a 1 shining moment.
00:09:13 Darin Detwiler
Was like every kind of experience from.
00:09:16 Darin Detwiler
Our panel was along that lines of we're talking to the people who are going to be the change agents within their within their company, within their corporate sector, whatever.
00:09:26 Kristin Demoranville
Yeah, I definitely.
00:09:27 Kristin Demoranville
I saw the crowd.
00:09:29 Kristin Demoranville
Absorbing and.
00:09:31 Kristin Demoranville
I don't know how beyond that I can explain it.
00:09:34 Kristin Demoranville
Was really good to see.
00:09:36 Kristin Demoranville
I think we got a few laughs and a few aha moments and a few.
00:09:40 Kristin Demoranville
You know, and it definitely was memorable in that regard. I think the way they had it set up was interesting though, because you had like the Expo for the for all the vendors in the middle and all the all the different talks at around it and I liked.
00:09:54 Kristin Demoranville
They had the headsets. If you needed a translation. If you didn't have, you know, knew enough English or didn't know enough French, which I thought was really well done.
00:10:00 Kristin Demoranville
And I was really surprised how well you could hear because I was always worried that because we were in that loud space, it actually was OK like.
00:10:08 Kristin Demoranville
Was pretty good, Andrew.
00:10:09 Kristin Demoranville
Did you think?
00:10:11 Andrew Rose
Or I shouldn't say typically many times I'm giving presentations it's to CPA certified public accountants and they come to see me speak because they get continuing education credits and it's part of the 40 credits they need every two years to continue their licensure.
00:10:24 Andrew Rose
And.
00:10:25 Andrew Rose
They're coming to me because they have to.
00:10:27 Andrew Rose
And typically when I speak about 1/3 will not off 1/3.
00:10:31 Andrew Rose
Work and then one third typically has kind of eye.
00:10:35 Andrew Rose
I'm not sure if they're even understanding what I'm saying or not.
00:10:38 Andrew Rose
This was a whole different audience.
00:10:39 Andrew Rose
Were.
00:10:40 Andrew Rose
They made eye.
00:10:41 Andrew Rose
They nodded at the appropriate.
00:10:43 Andrew Rose
Say they laughed when it was a a good line or they were serious when we had other lines too.
00:10:48 Andrew Rose
Like that a.
00:10:49 Andrew Rose
One thing that kind of stood out for me there too, I know being inside of a conference space with pipe and drape, separating people and just, you know, all the hard angles, friends.
00:10:58 Andrew Rose
Sounds to echo off of an all.
00:11:00 Andrew Rose
It was a good job and kind of keeping the music where it needed to be, I.
00:11:04 Andrew Rose
The food was a little bit better than average, you know, we had to figure out where it was coming out of and make sure we positioned ourselves in a place where we got the full trays around the empty trays going back into the kitchen to get refilled. But.
00:11:16 Andrew Rose
Think that that one day we.
00:11:17 Andrew Rose
Position ourselves, really.
00:11:18 Andrew Rose
They were just putting food in front of us left and right, and I had a lot of really good one off conversations with people, too many of them. Because of your introduction.
00:11:26 Andrew Rose
I appreciate that as.
00:11:27 Andrew Rose
I mean fantastic people and I've got several follow-ups I'm working on right now based on that.
00:11:27 Kristin Demoranville
You're welcome.
00:11:32 Andrew Rose
I appreciate I also like the fact that it wasn't just the cyber Community commercial community, the government cyber communities were there and I don't normally see that type of representation of events like everyone.
00:11:35
Me.
00:11:41 Andrew Rose
In the US, maybe there's an NSA person or something like.
00:11:44 Andrew Rose
But here they were full-fledged in uniform ready apparent and wanted to talk.
00:11:49 Andrew Rose
You saw me? I made a beeline right to them.
00:11:51 Andrew Rose
Like, oh, governments here. Thank God.
00:11:53 Andrew Rose
Let's tell them what's going on, you know.
00:11:55 Darin Detwiler
Yeah, I only ever see people like in public health service and I noted.
00:12:00 Darin Detwiler
It wasn't just like a recruiter or a marketing.
00:12:04 Darin Detwiler
There were a lot of people with a lot of different ranks there with the Canadian cybersecurity force in uniform that that wasn't, that was some my notice as well.
00:12:14 Kristin Demoranville
I couldn't turn around in any of the social events without standing next to the Montreal or the Canadian Ministry of something or.
00:12:21 Kristin Demoranville
And every time I get introduced to somebody, it was the ministry of whatever this is I'm speaking to and I I hadn't had that happen in a long time. I mean, when I'm at the food events with with Darren, for example.
00:12:32 Kristin Demoranville
There tends to be a lot of FDA, USDA, FBI, Homeland Security for the US side, and I randomly run into a new FBI agent every time I'm there.
00:12:42 Kristin Demoranville
This felt.
00:12:43 Kristin Demoranville
It felt more intimate and more intentional, which is for a cybersecurity conference really interesting because that's not normally how it goes.
00:12:51 Kristin Demoranville
It's usually a lot more vendor heavy and I realized that there were a lot of vendors there, but they weren't.
00:12:56 Kristin Demoranville
Face I didn't feel that I didn't feel like there was there was a.
00:13:00 Kristin Demoranville
There were some gimmicky things like the guy in the pig costume, which I still don't know what he was doing.
00:13:05 Kristin Demoranville
That was a little weird.
00:13:06
I don't know.
00:13:07 Darin Detwiler
My wife left at the photo I took with him, so.
00:13:09 Kristin Demoranville
Andrew made me take a.
00:13:11 Kristin Demoranville
With him. So but.
00:13:13 Andrew Rose
Make me do that and loyal listeners out there. If any of you have, I hop coupons, I might have a copy of that picture for you.
00:13:22 Kristin Demoranville
Oh, don't don't believe him.
00:13:22 Darin Detwiler
There were some.
00:13:23 Darin Detwiler
There were some good conference swag there too.
00:13:26 Kristin Demoranville
There was. I really didn't pick any up because, oh, the pen.
00:13:29 Kristin Demoranville
I do actually have that I there was a Bento box.
00:13:29 Darin Detwiler
I got the Ben so far.
00:13:33 Darin Detwiler
Oh yeah, there was like a plastic reusable Bento box.
00:13:36 Kristin Demoranville
I didn't see any of that, but then again, I kind of don't pick up swag anymore because I have so much of it.
00:13:41 Kristin Demoranville
It's just a T-shirts. If I'm going to pick them up because they squish in the suitcase really well, but generally.
00:13:47 Kristin Demoranville
Was not a typical cyber security conference, so I want you to know that.
00:13:52 Kristin Demoranville
This was very felt more elevated and more professional than some of the other ones, so I appreciate you both were there, but it sometimes I've got to feel like I didn't give you the full experience, so don't worry, you'll get it eventually and hopefully it will be just.
00:14:06 Kristin Demoranville
Much of the noise to us as it is to you, but thank you very much for that.
00:14:10 Kristin Demoranville
I thought.
00:14:11 Kristin Demoranville
The panel went really well though, like I, I was really pleasantly.
00:14:14 Kristin Demoranville
I was a little nervous about how we were going to be received because we were the only group talking about Food and Agriculture as they spoke about critical infrastructures at the conference.
00:14:22 Kristin Demoranville
Nobody mentioned food or agriculture again.
00:14:24 Kristin Demoranville
That's not out of normal, but we definitely represent it for our respected industries. And I do think that it brought up a little early interesting conversations, you know, in the hallways and I certainly had some weird interactions I didn't expect and some really amazing ones at the same.
00:14:39 Darin Detwiler
Time, perhaps one thing to consider is that you know.
00:14:42 Darin Detwiler
Food and Agriculture, you know, it's kind of like universal, you know, we can be talking about sports.
00:14:47 Darin Detwiler
So we.
00:14:47
Support.
00:14:48 Darin Detwiler
There's so many things we could be talking about that just it doesn't translate as well, whereas.
00:14:53 Darin Detwiler
You know, talking about Food and Agriculture, because that doesn't just impact people if it doesn't impact them in terms of their their specific job and their their sector, it impacts them in terms of you know, their home, their their, their families, their their personal elements. So we could.
00:15:06 Darin Detwiler
About language barriers, but we can talk about how you know food is a unified type of a concern that everyone has.
00:15:13 Darin Detwiler
And that some of the specific examples and Andrew was bringing up some really incredible.
00:15:19 Darin Detwiler
You know, you could almost talk about how those examples applied in any you know, any geographic or political location.
00:15:27
Mm.
00:15:28 Darin Detwiler
It's just that we have to talk about it on a bit more of a global scale because you know, you look at the idea of let, let's say we were talking.
00:15:35 Darin Detwiler
The 1970s.
00:15:36 Darin Detwiler
OK, most people you know, you don't have the.
00:15:38 Darin Detwiler
Obviously you don't have nearly as much global food distribution and supply. Most your food comes from, you know, a greater percentage comes from the state you live in. In the United States, and I would imagine, even up in Canada probably comes from, you know, the province you live.
00:15:53 Darin Detwiler
More so than.
00:15:54 Darin Detwiler
Today, though, we have such more global we have such more impact of of technology and and and such.
00:16:00 Darin Detwiler
Attacks and all these different things kind of collide to the point where you know it's almost like, you know, you went from a single lane Rd. to a multi lane highway in front of your house.
00:16:09 Darin Detwiler
The inherent risks are just greater. Doesn't mean your house is.
00:16:14 Darin Detwiler
It just means that you have to think about things differently as opposed to the way it was when it was just that.
00:16:19 Darin Detwiler
Lane Rd. And we created the most.
00:16:21 Kristin Demoranville
System on the planet. The food system is one of the most complex systems that we still don't have a full understanding of and still figuring out how it breaks.
00:16:29 Kristin Demoranville
And what happens when it breaks in certain places and how it overflows in other places and very complicated and especially when you add more tech to it, it really gets kind of out of control if you think about it and people are still reactive.
00:16:42 Kristin Demoranville
They're not proactive and I think that's what we're trying to constantly say.
00:16:46 Kristin Demoranville
Let's do these things so we can be resilient when something happens, whether it's.
00:16:51 Kristin Demoranville
Foodborne illness or a cyber attack or a nation state attack, or any of that, and I really I love that.
00:16:57 Kristin Demoranville
Rang true throughout the whole panel, with all three of us because we're all aligned in that regard.
00:17:02 Darin Detwiler
Well, I think too that we have to separate the nostalgia, if you will.
00:17:05
None.
00:17:06 Darin Detwiler
Right. Look, if I were to eat some of my favorite cereal from when I was a kid, it might.
00:17:11 Darin Detwiler
Being brick memories. But you can't think about it in terms of being the same food that it was.
00:17:15 Darin Detwiler
Back, you know, 50 years. Sure. For me, there's so many different, you know, ingredients and additives and chemicals and shelf stabilizers and dyes and things like that. And a lot of these ingredients come from other parts of the world. Even something as simple as applesauce. We're seeing you.
00:17:17
Good.
00:17:29 Darin Detwiler
With the high lead from the cinnamon that comes into it, and I know this is a cybersecurity. But here's the thing. We're not just talking.
00:17:36 Darin Detwiler
Cybersecurity of the state I live in, we're not even talking about the cybersecurity of the country that I live.
00:17:41 Darin Detwiler
We have to talk about cybersecurity when it comes to our Food and Agriculture on a global scale because it's like the whole idea of.
00:17:48 Darin Detwiler
You know, a chain is only as strong as its weakest.
00:17:51 Darin Detwiler
Our global food supply is only as strong when it comes to cybersecurity as the resiliency of any of the locations on the planet, right?
00:18:01 Kristin Demoranville
That's actually a very, very.
00:18:03 Kristin Demoranville
You couldn't have actually said that any better.
00:18:10 Kristin Demoranville
Not changing subject was sort of moving into it a little bit of a different direction.
00:18:14 Kristin Demoranville
You discussed how farmers and Agri business can be resistant to tech.
00:18:19 Kristin Demoranville
What are some ways that tech providers or the government or anybody who works in that space can help make cybersecurity more accessible and appealing to small and medium sized farmers? The larger farmers are probably having that handled.
00:18:31 Kristin Demoranville
Conglomerates. But what are we doing about, you know, the farm down the street from any of us?
00:18:36 Andrew Rose
Last, there's actually two parts to that.
00:18:38 Andrew Rose
One is the ag tech adaptation by farmers to begin with.
00:18:41 Andrew Rose
And that's something that a lot of people need to understand, and it boils down to one simple question. How does this make the farmer more money, not spend money to save money?
00:18:51 Andrew Rose
Will this adoption of whatever this technologies make them more money behind the farm gate, their margins are so narrow right now.
00:18:58 Andrew Rose
As I mentioned in Montreal, most agriculture professionals and farmers get paid.
00:19:02 Andrew Rose
Once a year, everything they own is collateral for that paycheck, and it's dependent upon that crop they're growing right now, so they're rolling really heavy dice with it, a multi generation. So they not only have their ongoing business and their families to support, they have the weight of.
00:19:16 Andrew Rose
Those generations before them that gave them that land to produce something on.
00:19:19 Andrew Rose
There's a huge psychological weight on.
00:19:21 Andrew Rose
So when you come along and say, hey, we need.
00:19:23 Andrew Rose
Give you a new bolus or a new ear tag, or a new mesh system for your farm because.
00:19:28 Andrew Rose
It'll help reduce methane, or it'll help sequester carbon. OK, how does that make me more money without me spending money to get to that point in?
00:19:36 Andrew Rose
The cybersecurity overlay into all that technology that plugs into the internet's a whole different question, and you know #1 there's already the resistance to spending a lot of money on technology that may or may not be beneficial.
00:19:47 Andrew Rose
How do you protect it?
00:19:49 Andrew Rose
Who's responsible for protecting that?
00:19:51 Andrew Rose
It the.
00:19:51 Andrew Rose
Is it the John?
00:19:52 Andrew Rose
The selling the tractor? Or is it the?
00:19:54 Andrew Rose
Where does that liability ultimately fall? And unless a hot potato?
00:19:57 Andrew Rose
Someone needs to figure that.
00:19:58 Andrew Rose
Because farmers, that's one more headache right now in an over regulated environment with climatic impacts, geopolitical impact.
00:20:05 Andrew Rose
It's just one more thing that that's just gonna be on their shoulders. So I would love to see us adopt some sort of policy very similar to crop insurance that can give us some sort of back stop, some sort of reinsurance agent or the agriculture community in the.
00:20:19 Andrew Rose
That the cyber attacks.
00:20:20 Andrew Rose
I mean, that's just us sitting back and absorbing these blows again.
00:20:24 Andrew Rose
Know me, I relate to.
00:20:25 Andrew Rose
Go a little bit more on the offensive side.
00:20:27 Andrew Rose
Things too, I think that we have under our adversaries have obviously dominated the.
00:20:32 Andrew Rose
Other attack surfaces other than kinetics, you know bullets and bombs.
00:20:37 Andrew Rose
Sabotage. Espionage. Cyber information.
00:20:40 Andrew Rose
They view those all as domains of warfare.
00:20:43 Andrew Rose
And so we're then left to absorb these blows past the the pain, onto the farmers and business owners and others out there. Our cyber community is just under so much stress.
00:20:53 Andrew Rose
Now, because they're constantly having to put fires out and stomping on moles rather than having the ability for us to slap back a little bit and get some breathing room there.
00:21:01 Andrew Rose
Again, these are these are Andrew roses opinions, not the bio isacs opinions.
00:21:05 Kristin Demoranville
Now understood. Understood I am.
00:21:07 Kristin Demoranville
I just did a talk.
00:21:10 Kristin Demoranville
ICS Conference, Industrial Control Security Conference and I had a gentleman stand up and said unless it's regulated, I'm not putting security around my product and everybody was really like, whoa, I can't believe you set up, stood up and said that. But to me, he was being real. Why?
00:21:24 Kristin Demoranville
Would he do that if he was not regulated to do that? So product security is a really complicated thing.
00:21:31 Kristin Demoranville
Ultimately.
00:21:31 Andrew Rose
And whether and that ties back into something you said before too.
00:21:34 Andrew Rose
One of the things that I spoke about when I was in Chicago on the future of the food supply chain was that a lot of companies these days do what I call chasing.
00:21:41 Andrew Rose
They got 99.999% efficiency and they're chasing that next 9 in there and they're building these these tech stacks on top of tech stacks. And for me, the more agile you become, the more fragile you become.
00:21:53 Andrew Rose
It takes is 1 little piece of that now falling apart and the entire tech stack then collapses.
00:21:57 Andrew Rose
And what is the point?
00:21:59 Andrew Rose
What added benefit and efficiency is that really going to do given how much?
00:22:04 Andrew Rose
Fragile the system is complicated. The system is in a complex world.
00:22:07 Kristin Demoranville
Well, you look at crowd strike and Microsoft.
00:22:10 Kristin Demoranville
That showed us that there was one pillar that everything was standing on, and as soon as that Jenga peg flew out, that was.
00:22:16 Kristin Demoranville
And we are one hairpin away from that at all times.
00:22:19 Kristin Demoranville
I don't think people realize how fragile the system is, and it's I don't want our adversaries to figure that out.
00:22:25 Kristin Demoranville
Know what I?
00:22:26 Kristin Demoranville
Like, that's not what we want, because as soon as that happens, then we're in big trouble. And unfortunately, crowd strike and Microsoft showed that to us.
00:22:33 Kristin Demoranville
And of course, it's got all of us going, but also at the same time, we've been saying this so.
00:22:39 Kristin Demoranville
It's on and I told you.
00:22:40 Kristin Demoranville
It's AI didn't want to have to say that moment, you know.
00:22:44 Darin Detwiler
There's another angle of earlier this year, I was San Francisco at future food tech, and and there was a great conversation around, you know, is it regulated?
00:22:53 Darin Detwiler
Also, there's the economic side of things. When we look at the idea of a venture capital, so much technology.
00:22:59 Darin Detwiler
And software and.
00:23:02 Darin Detwiler
You look at the idea of of invest.
00:23:05 Darin Detwiler
And the reality is that most investors, if it's if that's where you're getting the funds for for technology, whether it's transparency, traceability, digitization and of course, you can't talk about those 3 without talking about the idea of securing that information.
00:23:19 Darin Detwiler
They want a short return on.
00:23:21 Darin Detwiler
They want a short term, you know, benefit to to their.
00:23:26 Darin Detwiler
But we're talking about something that's really more long term and how do you show?
00:23:30 Darin Detwiler
I mean, how do you how do you show that you didn't have a cyber attack and it's one of those crazy scenarios where you're trying to, you're trying to justify something before it happens and from the?
00:23:43
Fine.
00:23:44 Darin Detwiler
Finance sector of things.
00:23:45 Darin Detwiler
It's hard to be proactive in that sense because you can't really put a dollar amount to it in terms of being proactive and investing into it now after the fact, we can say.
00:23:55 Darin Detwiler
This breach ended up costing us $25 million. We'll have to pay that bill, but OK.
00:24:00 Darin Detwiler
Come. It's so quick to say.
00:24:01 Darin Detwiler
Have.
00:24:02 Darin Detwiler
We'll have to pay that $25 million, but when you ask for $2,000,000 to be proactive, well, how do we know that's really going to work?
00:24:08 Andrew Rose
Well, Darren, that's there's a simple answer.
00:24:09
Hi.
00:24:11 Andrew Rose
A simple answer to.
00:24:12 Andrew Rose
I mean it's we're just following the the the path that the politicians have laid.
00:24:16 Andrew Rose
Most politicians are lawyers, so they're risk averse to begin with.
00:24:19 Andrew Rose
Don't want to get ahead of a known issue that's going to explode on someone's watch until after it explodes.
00:24:25 Andrew Rose
They get ahead of it.
00:24:26 Andrew Rose
Could be.
00:24:27 Andrew Rose
It could be used against them if they wait for that explosion to.
00:24:30 Andrew Rose
Now they look a hero. They pour buckets of money on it and they build regulations around it.
00:24:34 Andrew Rose
It won't happen.
00:24:35 Andrew Rose
So they're incentivized on, you know, paying the price later on rather than again, we're talking.
00:24:40 Andrew Rose
Rational sentences here in an irrational world.
00:24:43 Kristin Demoranville
I think the thing that's hard.
00:24:46 Kristin Demoranville
Security incidents are going to happen.
00:24:48 Kristin Demoranville
Not.
00:24:49 Kristin Demoranville
It's not a if, it's a one thing and over the you know the long term couple decades of my career I have seen way too many that could have been averted and it all comes down to.
00:25:01 Kristin Demoranville
Are you risk?
00:25:02 Kristin Demoranville
Are you a risk?
00:25:03 Kristin Demoranville
Like what are you going to?
00:25:04 Kristin Demoranville
And that's what bothers me about the food and AG.
00:25:07 Kristin Demoranville
And I know I've talked about it with both of you off offline and and online is how many people need to die or how bad does this need to get before people actually start taking?
00:25:17 Kristin Demoranville
Real look at this in dealing with the risk rather than.
00:25:21 Kristin Demoranville
Oh, something.
00:25:21 Kristin Demoranville
So here's a ton of money. We're just gonna fix the problem.
00:25:24 Kristin Demoranville
Why don't we fix the problem before? That's it's so ridiculous.
00:25:27 Kristin Demoranville
Like the House is on.
00:25:29 Kristin Demoranville
But yet we're still spraying more oil on it.
00:25:31 Kristin Demoranville
What are we doing? It's so stupid.
00:25:32 Darin Detwiler
Well, that's the bodies in the street kind of approach. The idea of, you know, well, we didn't do anything because there was only one death and only 15 states impacted.
00:25:35 Kristin Demoranville
Yeah.
00:25:42 Darin Detwiler
Well, so then what's the?
00:25:43 Darin Detwiler
How many states had to be impacted?
00:25:45 Darin Detwiler
How many businesses had to shut?
00:25:47 Darin Detwiler
How many people had to die or or to be in hospital for this to be of concern?
00:25:51 Darin Detwiler
You know, going back to that idea of that multi generational, you know, the person who owns the family and being responsible to their, to their, their, their family, you know, plot of land.
00:26:00 Darin Detwiler
And the farmer that's there, you know, we saw this during the pandemic.
00:26:03 Darin Detwiler
Many families were how many family?
00:26:06 Darin Detwiler
Excuse me were impacted because you know well no one was going to the restaurants and buying all these different things.
00:26:10 Darin Detwiler
So now their onions had no place to go, or whatever it was, had no place to go.
00:26:14 Darin Detwiler
We had to shift the business model.
00:26:16 Darin Detwiler
To adapt during that kind of situation, and did we learn any lesson from that? Because during that time those were families that were essentially.
00:26:25 Darin Detwiler
Not making money at the end of the year and if anything, they were waiting for. You know, government assist programs to help them offset their costs and with the promise of.
00:26:36 Darin Detwiler
Your profits will bounce back next year.
00:26:38 Darin Detwiler
You can't operate in that kind of a mode, and even though.
00:26:43 Darin Detwiler
A business can have you know an economic recovery after an.
00:26:46 Darin Detwiler
How many families wish that they could have a recovery and a do over after they've been, you know, ridiculously harmed because of certain failures?
00:26:56 Darin Detwiler
And again, it comes down to, I really like that that notion of the idea is there incentivization to allow it to become a problem for you, deal with it rather.
00:27:04 Darin Detwiler
Than being proactive.
00:27:07 Darin Detwiler
I want to hold out the hope that there are companies that are being proactive.
00:27:12 Darin Detwiler
Maybe it's because they've already been.
00:27:14 Darin Detwiler
Maybe it's because they've seen their competitors be stung, but we need to look at the idea of.
00:27:20 Darin Detwiler
Across the.
00:27:20 Darin Detwiler
The idea of the entire sector, the entire commodity, you know, not just the one brand or the one company will be impacted by.
00:27:31 Darin Detwiler
Not being as resilient as possible.
00:27:33 Kristin Demoranville
We need some champion companies and some champion countries I think is.
00:27:37 Andrew Rose
Well, I I think also reframing that question a little bit.
00:27:41 Andrew Rose
I don't think anyone needs to die.
00:27:44 Andrew Rose
Uh, I think all it's going to take and you've heard me say it many times. If your kid goes five days without food, you're gonna break a law and three weeks out food the government's gonna fall.
00:27:52 Andrew Rose
Mean you're still technically gonna have a pulse in your body.
00:27:55 Andrew Rose
Mean you'd be dying. You'd be starving. But.
00:27:59 Andrew Rose
You know.
00:27:59 Andrew Rose
It can happen so fast, so fast that there's there's no time to even rally around it.
00:28:05 Andrew Rose
And once it's once it stops, it's kind of hard to restart.
00:28:08 Kristin Demoranville
You know you both are talking.
00:28:10 Kristin Demoranville
Talking around.
00:28:10 Kristin Demoranville
So let's just talk about.
00:28:12 Kristin Demoranville
We talked about it on the panel too, but the concept of doing nothing as a high cost. So what are some ways that that we can calculate and communicate this this cost effectively to justify cybersecurity investment in the food industry and we can even take this one step?
00:28:26 Kristin Demoranville
As how do we tie?
00:28:27 Kristin Demoranville
Into the work that the three of us are doing to push forward to have those champion moments, to make people realize. And I realized that a lot of times, this grassroots and it's one-on-one and we have to get in front of individuals all the time but.
00:28:40 Kristin Demoranville
The awareness work that we do is super important so.
00:28:43 Kristin Demoranville
Darren, I'm gonna have you start because I know the cost of doing nothing is been on top of mine for you.
00:28:48 Darin Detwiler
Yeah. You know, again it's like we collect data and we look at the how much will it cost to do this.
00:28:54 Darin Detwiler
Much will it cost to do this?
00:28:55 Darin Detwiler
Don't typically calculate that.
00:28:57 Darin Detwiler
The cost of doing nothing, the cost of doing nothing, has to be part of the equation because if we ignore and then we deal with it reactively, right?
00:29:06 Darin Detwiler
Not only do the costs go up, but.
00:29:09 Darin Detwiler
You got to realize it.
00:29:10 Darin Detwiler
The costs are going to be passed on to the consumer and in most cases the consumer doesn't really want to be told that.
00:29:16 Darin Detwiler
You're paying more because we've messed.
00:29:17 Darin Detwiler
I would rather be told I'm paying more because we're going to make it.
00:29:20 Darin Detwiler
Or resilient and and a safer product down the road. I could buy into that a lot more. You know, there's there's a lot of things, you know, that we can agree to to pay more for, but there's also an element in terms of corporate social responsibility at what?
00:29:37 Darin Detwiler
Point are you not being?
00:29:39 Darin Detwiler
A responsible executive if, if you have knowledge but you don't act on that knowledge.
00:29:44 Darin Detwiler
We look at the responsible corporate officer doctrine that came from 1975 Supreme Court decision and park the US.
00:29:44 Kristin Demoranville
When we.
00:29:52 Darin Detwiler
It didn't say that if bad things happen to you, you will be held strictly and personally liable for those.
00:29:58 Darin Detwiler
What it said is that you know things happen and you deal with.
00:30:02 Darin Detwiler
But if you don't deal with it, if you have knowledge of these things and you don't act to prevent, to mitigate, to to, to resolve these issues, then there is a point where you should be held responsible because you knew better and you could have done something differe.
00:30:18 Darin Detwiler
I think that having.
00:30:19 Darin Detwiler
Events. There's got to be, you know, I didn't see a lot of people like from major food brands there, for instance, right?
00:30:26 Darin Detwiler
I mean this really a food event but but.
00:30:29 Darin Detwiler
If it was really advertised as to hey, if you're a corporate, you know, executive for major food companies, you should be there.
00:30:35 Darin Detwiler
I know for a fact that there's people that, when they do gravitate to certain things, but they also avoid certain things because they've been involved in this conversation for a long time.
00:30:45 Darin Detwiler
Can't have that kind of plausible deniability of I just didn't know how bad it was.
00:30:50 Darin Detwiler
And as crazy and conspiratorial as that may sound, that is a bit of reality in terms of, well, we don't want to collect data on this because if we collect data, it could be held.
00:30:51 Kristin Demoranville
I.
00:31:00 Darin Detwiler
Against us. Or it could be used to prove that we knew about the problem all along.
00:31:03 Darin Detwiler
I hear this over and over and over again, and I think the same thing can apply here in terms of cybersecurity.
00:31:07 Kristin Demoranville
It already.
00:31:08 Kristin Demoranville
I mean, chief information security officers are being hauled into committing meetings in front of Congress and having to explain why something happened.
00:31:17 Kristin Demoranville
It will happen with crowd strike and Microsoft it think it's already started.
00:31:20 Kristin Demoranville
Mean Delta suing them now so.
00:31:23 Kristin Demoranville
There's a lot of accountability that has to be taken and then it takes into account mental health because nobody wants to be a chief from an information security officer. Now because of this, because it's, you know, you're now your livelihood and other things are on the line in.
00:31:35 Kristin Demoranville
Of security.
00:31:37 Kristin Demoranville
Personnel that are in the food industry, the great people, they're doing what they can.
00:31:40 Kristin Demoranville
A lot of them didn't come out of food production.
00:31:43 Kristin Demoranville
Came out of finance or health care?
00:31:45 Kristin Demoranville
They're still learning the ropes, which I think is great that you're learning it and on the job, but at the same time you need to surround yourself. Community that knows, and I find that there's a lot of silos there and that that becomes difficult, even even me.
00:31:57 Kristin Demoranville
My specialization I sometimes can't get close to them either, so that's that's hard and I hope that breaks eventually that we can have more community in this space because you could tell that the cyber community was quite interested in what we were talking about. There was definitely.
00:32:11 Kristin Demoranville
Interest and excitement around it and good probing questions. But overarching, it's going to take I think quite a.
00:32:17 Kristin Demoranville
To.
00:32:17 Kristin Demoranville
People to start switching their mindset and incorporating more systems thinking approach to the world that they work in.
00:32:25 Kristin Demoranville
Because most people just do their job and go home, they don't care.
00:32:28 Kristin Demoranville
But This is why I really love working with both of you and the teams that surround you.
00:32:32 Kristin Demoranville
It's personal for us.
00:32:34 Kristin Demoranville
We we definitely take this into our lives in a different way when we think about the people that are.
00:32:39 Kristin Demoranville
Around us and I I'm really grateful that I know that group of people because it gives me the fuel I need to keep moving.
00:32:45 Kristin Demoranville
I don't want this all to sound like Doom and.
00:32:47 Kristin Demoranville
There's a lot of really good people doing work on the ground and there's going to be even more of us coming down the pipeline as the generations catch on.
00:32:53 Kristin Demoranville
I want to give you a chance to comment on the the concept of doing nothing as.
00:32:57 Kristin Demoranville
High cost? Sure.
00:32:58 Andrew Rose
I mean, and you also asked, what is it that's going to get us more allocations of cyber resources for the food?
00:33:04 Andrew Rose
Community and it's that's pretty simple.
00:33:06 Andrew Rose
You know, it's a high profile, JBS type of attack. Everyone will come running to us.
00:33:11 Andrew Rose
All the agencies will come running to.
00:33:13 Andrew Rose
There will be opportunities for grants and other dollars to address things that happen, and I'm not being facetious either. For a long time.
00:33:22 Andrew Rose
And water fought for the bottom of the list.
00:33:25 Andrew Rose
Resources available, but some recent attacks in the.
00:33:27 Andrew Rose
Order system have given them some more the resources they really truly need.
00:33:31 Andrew Rose
So I'm glad that they're being paid attention to, but Simply put, unfortunately, it's going to take some devastation for folks to react to something like this.
00:33:42 Andrew Rose
Right now, there are businesses in the United States that are going naked without cyber insurance because they can't afford it.
00:33:47 Andrew Rose
The questions are too.
00:33:48 Andrew Rose
Because it's too expensive, doesn't pay out what it should pay out relative to what the cost is.
00:33:54 Andrew Rose
I don't know what is the cost of doing nothing. We're going to find out, aren't we?
00:33:57 Darin Detwiler
Chris economic, a dark prediction here.
00:33:58 Kristin Demoranville
As well.
00:34:00 Kristin Demoranville
Sure. Go for.
00:34:01 Darin Detwiler
I love you.
00:34:01 Kristin Demoranville
We'll get it on record right now.
00:34:03 Darin Detwiler
I want to preface this by saying that I hope I'm I hope I'm not.
00:34:06 Darin Detwiler
Right here, within the next 5 years, there will be a cyber attack that impacts our food industry and it will be referred to as the 9/11 of of cybersecurity. And we will see.
00:34:19 Darin Detwiler
Additions to our Department of Homeland Security. We will.
00:34:22 Darin Detwiler
Perhaps our own new kind of like how we just added the space force.
00:34:26 Darin Detwiler
Have our own US cybersecurity force.
00:34:30 Darin Detwiler
We will have.
00:34:33 Darin Detwiler
Federally created jobs, much like the TSA, but within the the food industry because of cyberattacks, and it'll be thought of as this, this, this brand new awakening that we have to do something about.
00:34:45 Darin Detwiler
Be billions and billions of dollars allocated to this.
00:34:48 Darin Detwiler
This will be heralded as the like you said.
00:34:52 Darin Detwiler
Like someone said, the the you know the corner piece of someone's political legacy for what they did in this and what we do going forward as a nation.
00:35:01 Darin Detwiler
And umm, you know, it'll it'll be free, almost referred to as the TSA over the food industry. These people that work in those contexts.
00:35:09 Darin Detwiler
But it it, it is very likely that something like this will happen.
00:35:14 Darin Detwiler
Why can't it happen?
00:35:15 Darin Detwiler
You know, looking at our our political state right now, I don't see any reason why it's without of the.
00:35:22 Darin Detwiler
Scope of it happening within the next 5.
00:35:24 Darin Detwiler
Years and, you know, we'll look back on this and go remember when we talked about cybersecurity and it was just like, you know, an additional condiment on the table at a restaurant. You know, some have it.
00:35:35 Darin Detwiler
Some like it.
00:35:37 Darin Detwiler
Some go big, some go small.
00:35:39 Darin Detwiler
Some ignore the the whatever and then you look at the idea of 30 years from now so.
00:35:45 Darin Detwiler
In the year 2060.
00:35:47 Darin Detwiler
There will be a whole crop of, you know, people that are like, we've always had this level of cybersecurity and government interest in this because they don't know any better.
00:35:58
Mm.
00:35:58 Darin Detwiler
They don't realize how many people were literally like the three of us talking about these things.
00:36:04 Darin Detwiler
Back in the year 2024.
00:36:06 Andrew Rose
Well, that sounds like the whole country of Estonia. Back in 2007, they was the first cyber war that Russia.
00:36:12 Andrew Rose
They had their new weapons, new cyber warriors in Estonia as a country, then put cyber hygiene K through their higher Ed system in high school.
00:36:20 Andrew Rose
Refight the same cyber battles they fought back then.
00:36:23 Andrew Rose
It works as making your populace your most secure level defense.
00:36:29 Kristin Demoranville
I actually have fantastic Internet there too.
00:36:31 Darin Detwiler
Remember, dare like the the.
00:36:34 Kristin Demoranville
The case kids off drugs. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:36:36 Darin Detwiler
New dare. It'll be like the.
00:36:39 Kristin Demoranville
They still have that, Darren.
00:36:40 Darin Detwiler
Do they?
00:36:40 Kristin Demoranville
It's still in.
00:36:41 Kristin Demoranville
Yeah, it's still in schools.
00:36:42 Darin Detwiler
I'm not.
00:36:43 Darin Detwiler
There is still in schools saying it'll be the new dare.
00:36:47 Kristin Demoranville
Maybe I I do think that they should teach, you know, food safety and cybersecurity to kids. I and you have to take like a home ex class. They do.
00:36:56 Kristin Demoranville
Food safety.
00:36:57 Kristin Demoranville
They too, teach the kids not to wash their chicken and things like that.
00:37:01 Kristin Demoranville
I get updates because one of my step sons is in it.
00:37:03 Kristin Demoranville
Fascinating because I didn't learn that I don't.
00:37:06 Kristin Demoranville
I don't remember cutting chicken in high school like when I did those classes, so I'm glad to hear that they're teaching at least some life skills that will help you later on to not die.
00:37:13 Kristin Demoranville
That's.
00:37:13 Kristin Demoranville
Way to go with school systems. I think you're being generous, Darren.
00:37:17 Kristin Demoranville
I think five years is too.
00:37:18 Kristin Demoranville
I think it's going to be in the next 3.
00:37:21 Kristin Demoranville
I I just.
00:37:22 Kristin Demoranville
Know.
00:37:23 Kristin Demoranville
I know what I.
00:37:24 Kristin Demoranville
My gut instinct is telling me this and and that doesn't mean I know anything that's like, yes, it is.
00:37:27 Darin Detwiler
Years this within five years, but.
00:37:29 Kristin Demoranville
I do think you're being generous with five.
00:37:31 Kristin Demoranville
Do think it's going to be 3?
00:37:31
OK.
00:37:33 Kristin Demoranville
And I'm not saying I have any insider information that makes me really smart and figure this out.
00:37:37 Kristin Demoranville
Just reading, reading the tea leaves.
00:37:39 Darin Detwiler
Andrew Witcher? Yeah, what's?
00:37:40 Kristin Demoranville
Your timeline, Andrew.
00:37:42 Andrew Rose
Oh it already.
00:37:43 Andrew Rose
We just don't know about it.
00:37:45 Kristin Demoranville
Yeah, that also could be.
00:37:47 Kristin Demoranville
I actually was gonna say that caveat.
00:37:49 Kristin Demoranville
Could.
00:37:49 Kristin Demoranville
It's already.
00:37:50 Kristin Demoranville
That's the worst part about it, because we again don't know what.
00:37:53 Kristin Demoranville
Don't know.
00:37:54 Kristin Demoranville
And there's a lot of that going on right now.
00:37:56 Kristin Demoranville
I feel like every time I have a conversation with food production or AG, it's always hey, we have this thing.
00:38:02 Kristin Demoranville
Do you?
00:38:03 Kristin Demoranville
And I just go. Whoa, hold on.
00:38:06 Kristin Demoranville
What happened and?
00:38:06 Darin Detwiler
Well, you know.
00:38:07 Darin Detwiler
On the conservative end of things, when we hear about a recall, it's like the incident at the at the most soonest is 6 to 8 weeks old.
00:38:16 Darin Detwiler
If not older, even with the the recent thing with onions at McDonald's.
00:38:22 Darin Detwiler
You know, we found out about it on that that, that Tuesday.
00:38:26 Darin Detwiler
After after someone went and played cosplay with French fries at McDonald's.
00:38:32 Darin Detwiler
Umm, but but you were talking about people who got sick early the the the prior prior.
00:38:37 Darin Detwiler
So it's like, OK, the companies and the government knows about things, and then there's a timeline and then the public knows about.
00:38:45 Darin Detwiler
So, Andrew you you know you're you're you're very likely correct in terms of the fact that something could have happened 45678 weeks ago and you know we just haven't heard about it as a as a populace yet.
00:38:57 Kristin Demoranville
Stuff. But I will say on a positive since we're being super gloomy and doomy right now, which is still realistic and everybody needs to hear it.
00:39:04 Kristin Demoranville
Will say that certain events have triggered certain people to start stepping up and be more proactive.
00:39:11 Kristin Demoranville
I've had the privilege of speaking to a few individuals over the last week or so, talking about how they're being more proactive. Nothing's wrong.
00:39:19 Kristin Demoranville
But they really want to work on their security posture and their maturity in various different industries within the food sector and sector, which is really encouraging for me to.
00:39:28 Kristin Demoranville
Here that out of out of chaos usually comes some sense of peace and.
00:39:35 Kristin Demoranville
Forward through.
00:39:35 Kristin Demoranville
So I do think that there are some people that are really doing the best that they can and trying to do that bit more, so that's good.
00:39:42 Kristin Demoranville
All like that.
00:39:44 Kristin Demoranville
But collectively, as a group of humans, we need to step it up like we need to.
00:39:48 Kristin Demoranville
We need to step it up bad and I think that some people think that we're all these conspiracies and there were just these crazy people that say all this weird stuff like this on air and whatnot.
00:39:57 Kristin Demoranville
We actually have legitimate documentation to prove this has.
00:40:00 Kristin Demoranville
This is not something that just we made-up and then we're writing a fantasy novel.
00:40:04 Kristin Demoranville
I wish I could say that it probably make a great fantasy novel.
00:40:12 Kristin Demoranville
We're touching on being more resilient as a theme and we did talk about that quite a bit on the panel as well.
00:40:13
Being more.
00:40:17 Kristin Demoranville
So what advice would you give companies and individuals in the food sector about building resilience beyond just basic cybersecurity and food safety?
00:40:26 Kristin Demoranville
Other things you want to talk?
00:40:27 Kristin Demoranville
In those spaces.
00:40:28 Kristin Demoranville
Andrew, you first.
00:40:29 Andrew Rose
Heavy lift right there.
00:40:31 Andrew Rose
I guess I'll share what I shared in Chicago that our adversaries, whether they're North Korea or Iran or China, and I don't know if Russia is going to adversary or ally now with our new administration.
00:40:43 Andrew Rose
Regardless, they view us as their.
00:40:45 Andrew Rose
They view us as already being at war with them. They view.
00:40:50 Andrew Rose
The the.
00:40:50 Andrew Rose
Like I said, the domains are sabotage, espionage, information warfare, cyber.
00:40:55 Andrew Rose
Everything but kinetics like that. If it becomes a kinetic war, one of the first things our adversaries will want to do is blind us by taking out our GPS.
00:41:04 Andrew Rose
So for anyone out there in the food nag supply chain, if you have drivers or you have trucks or vehicles around the road, make sure you got paper maps and make sure that the person who's driving the truck is under 30. They know how to use a paper.
00:41:16 Andrew Rose
That's just a good little bit of resiliency there and.
